More atheism addressed.

My point is that all of our evidence is limited to one infinitesimally small sector of the universe: Earth and our small sphere of operation.

We are already discovering that Gravity operates very differently in deep, interstellar, space than it does on Earth or in our Solar System.

Study of quantum mechanics shows us that those immutable laws of nature do not apply to the sub-atomic level.

When we take what we observe here on Earth, and by rote apply it as a universal law we are being quite short-sighted. There is no reason to assume that what goes on in the tiny bubble of a solar system is not simply an evolving phenomenon itself. What we call immutable laws, are immutable because we've never witnessed them behaving differently, but I find it a little arrogant on our part to think that because we've observed the universe for a few hundred years, we can declare anything with certainty.

Uriah,

You're right that we humans will be lucky to have left a fossilized leg bone as our legacy but I'm not saying God is just concerned with human life but all life and that is why he didn't do the whole Genesis thing. He doesn't want to give us some paradise in a garden of Eden but want's life to strive to earn it on it's own. That's why God made evolution.

Helium,

Yes! God is a libertarian! The first one actually!

Schizophretard wrote:

Yes! God is a libertarian! The first one actually!

Exactly. He gave us our free will, and what do so many of us want to do with it? Subjugate the free will of others to their own. How very ungodlike.

Schizophretard wrote:

Uriah,

You're right that we humans will be lucky to have left a fossilized leg bone as our legacy but I'm not saying God is just concerned with human life but all life and that is why he didn't do the whole Genesis thing. He doesn't want to give us some paradise in a garden of Eden but want's life to strive to earn it on it's own. That's why God made evolution.

I understand, but let me offer this simple counter point. As humans we rarely know anything with certainty, even the motivations and desire of our own selves, our own unconscious minds, are largely a mystery to us. Even as "sentient" creatures we are mostly at the whim of our own internal instincts, natures, and emotional responses.

That being the case, how can you, or anybody, say what God wants, or what God did, with any amount of certainty?

Your feelings of what God "wants", or "what God did" are simply based on your opinions, which in turn are based on your own infallible human conceptual abilities.

You don't know that God wanted anything, or that what we call evolution, and the universe as we perceive it, were even this being's intended consequences of creation.

Uriah wrote:

You don't know that God wanted anything, or that what we call evolution, and the universe as we perceive it, were even this being's intended consequences of creation.

What, God had the power to create the universe, but didn't know what would happen after that? Atheism is much more likely.

What possible reasons would He have to create a universe that evolved over 13 billion years? Why not, instead of the natural, rational Big Bang, did He not instead initiate the Big Plop where everything just came to be in place? I can count the reasons on one finger.

The Paineful Truth wrote:

What, God had the power to create the universe, but didn't know what would happen after that?

Sure, why not? Somewhat like initiating a Fractal set, the mathematician may have a good idea as to what its parameters will be, but he has no idea what form it will take, especially on the small scale.

The Paineful Truth wrote:

What possible reasons would He have to create a universe that evolved over 13 billion years?

Why does God need a reason, especially one humans would understand?

You act as if it's a certainty that humans are able to perceive the motivations of God. I accept that there is no certainty.

Uriah wrote:

Why does God need a reason, especially one humans would understand?

You act as if it's a certainty that humans are able to perceive the motivations of God. I accept that there is no certainty.

It isn't certain, but I think that one of the pieces of wisdom in the Bible is that we're created in His image. We're both (must be) sentient spirits, we both seek companionship, and we both detest boredom, (indications for which for God would be the creation of this laboratory for the evolution of free willed sentient creatures).

It only makes sense, but I've got no proof, since I can't even present any significant evidence that God even exists.

His Image? So God has a penis?

Maybe God is a woman? But then wouldn't tits, and a fully operational reproductive system be a bit useless?

Does God also have vestigial organs and bear the traces of two primate chromosomes (now called chromosomes 2A and 2B in chimps) that fused to make what is now human chromosome 2?

Or is God just some completely perfect, idealized, human form. Seven feet tall, the body of a superhero. Chiseled, perfect, features - an amalgam of all ethnicities. And completely androgynous, like a giant David Bowie in the sky?



My only point is this. If Deism is supposed to be based on pure reason, than I think it is most reasonable to admit that humans are thoroughly and completely clueless. The limits of our universe, are the limits of our imagination.

Why such a literalist tangent when I'm sure you know what I'm saying? Work with me here.

Well. I guess I simply don't understand what you mean by being created in His image. Are you speaking just about our perception, our senses?

We have similar drives.

It's not such a stretch that, all alone in whatever existed before the universe, He might desire companionship, and cure His boredom. How could He go about doing that? Stage His own puppet show with Him controlling the strings and having them say what He'd programmed them to.

The ONLY solution would be sentient beings with free will (where one is, so too will the other be.) I obviously don't have all the answers, but this one core drive makes sense of a lot of other things we observe like His non-interference (if He exists). If it would work for Him to show Himself and tell us what to do, He'd have done it.

We have evolved into something approaching His spiritual image--just as He would have needed to design.

The Paineful Truth wrote:

We have similar drives.

It's not such a stretch that, all alone in whatever existed before the universe, He might desire companionship, and cure His boredom. How could He go about doing that? Stage His own puppet show with Him controlling the strings and having them say what He'd programmed them to.

The ONLY solution would be sentient beings with free will (where one is, so too will the other be.) I obviously don't have all the answers, but this one core drive makes sense of a lot of other things we observe like His non-interference (if He exists). If it would work for Him to show Himself and tell us what to do, He'd have done it.

We have evolved into something approaching His spiritual image--just as He would have needed to design.

Actually, I do think it's quite a stretch to imagine an omnipotent, omniscient being that had the ability to create the infinite expanse of the universe ex nihilo could get bored at all.

Why wouldn't he just have created a more interesting universe?

And if all he needed was a planet full of sea-monkeys to observe and live vicariously through than He's kind of a unimaginative twat, and the universe is an even bigger waste of space than I thought it was before. In fact, maybe God is just some autistic boy staring into a snow-globe...

Uriah wrote:

Actually, I do think it's quite a stretch to imagine an omnipotent, omniscient being that had the ability to create the infinite expanse of the universe ex nihilo could get bored at all.

Why wouldn't he just have created a more interesting universe?

He did, and one that evolved planet(s) with something much more than sea-monkeys.

There's only one question you might reasonably ask: "Why not create another God?" I believe there is only one whole Truth, therefore there can only be one God. The only way He can (no other word for it but) grow or add to the infinite, is to meld other independent spirits into the Godhead. Speculative yes, but a resonable extension of why He would have created us in the first place.

As long as your God image works for you, that's all that really matters. I'm sure we can both concede that there's absolutely no way to prove the existence, or lack of existence, of God - the same goes for the attributes of this being.

Quote :

Schizophretard wrote:

Yes! God is a libertarian! The first one actually!

Paineful wrote:
Exactly. He gave us our free will, and what do so many of us want to do with it? Subjugate the free will of others to their own. How very ungodlike.

Well that's an interesting theory you two have come up with.
Basically what you're saying is that if God called off the universe tonight and started distributing life forms on various planets according to how happy she was with the way they conducted their lives, her real happy planet would be populated by Libertarians, for it was they that really came closest to discerning the "truth."

Wow! Interesting discussion you've got going here.

I'm inclined to agree - mostly - with Uriah.

God created evolution, a really neat device that ensures life forms will continue to adapt to a changing environment. Because of this self-perpetuating device, I know some things about the Creator:

(1) God does not care about individuals. God's (evolution's) concern is with the continual improvement of species, not individual members of that species.

(2) Evolution is on-going. We are so proud of our status as the smartest monkeys on the planet, but seem to forget that evolution isn't finished! If God planned on creating a super race, we probably aren't even the beta version.

(3) God created the entire universe and may have seeded other planets with the ingredients for life. If so, you can bet there is evolution working on those planets, too.

(4) It is highly unlikely that God created the entire universe for the sole purpose of having homo sapiens develop (eventually) as His partners in paradise. Earth is not the center of the universe. It is not even the center of our solar system, which is an insignificant part of a galaxy which is also not in the center of the universe. If you think we are the center of God's Master Plan, you should reconsider it on the basis of our location in God's Master-planned Community.

I'm actually inclined to agree -mostly - with PA.
I actually think it's 1-0-1 for deism.
So any guest out there, take that as a deism 101-er from PA

Paul Anthony wrote:

Wow! Interesting discussion you've got going here.

I'm inclined to agree - mostly - with Uriah.

God created evolution, a really neat device that ensures life forms will continue to adapt to a changing environment. Because of this self-perpetuating device, I know some things about the Creator:

(1) God does not care about individuals. God's (evolution's) concern is with the continual improvement of species, not individual members of that species.

(2) Evolution is on-going. We are so proud of our status as the smartest monkeys on the planet, but seem to forget that evolution isn't finished! If God planned on creating a super race, we probably aren't even the beta version.

(3) God created the entire universe and may have seeded other planets with the ingredients for life. If so, you can bet there is evolution working on those planets, too.

(4) It is highly unlikely that God created the entire universe for the sole purpose of having homo sapiens develop (eventually) as His partners in paradise. Earth is not the center of the universe. It is not even the center of our solar system, which is an insignificant part of a galaxy which is also not in the center of the universe. If you think we are the center of God's Master Plan, you should reconsider it on the basis of our location in God's Master-planned Community.

Just the opposite, God would have created the universe precisely to spawn individuals. Only individuals, as a minimum, can be self-aware, thus possess free will and therefore understand the difference between right and wrong. Nowhere has anyone said that homo sapiens is the only species with these qualities in the universe, nor even the most advanced possible.

We are the first non-innocents on this world (of which I am aware), and we pay the terrible price for our freedom with the evil of those who cause wars and crime, the knowledge of our eventual deaths and understand the risks to our already short lives that are necessary to defend individual liberty.

Schizo's comment was a brilliant condensation of a simple, non political, Truth. God being the first libertarian simply means He is the ultimate source of our free will. Libertarian, after all, means nothing more than someone who is committed to liberty, which God, by His non-interference, obviously is (sigh) if He exists.

Uriah,

I don't know if God has a penis but if he does mine is definitely made in the image of God's.

Helium,

Paineful understood exactly what I meant by God being a libertarian without me explaining it. So, it isn't an unreasonable theory. I'm sure Paineful has came to the same conclusion that I have that the true God isn't some dictator that demands worship as Theists believe but God loves freedom and for that is worthy of our worship. By respecting the rights of others I feel like I'm honoring God and If I was to violate others' rights I would feel like I'm dishonoring God. This is my concept of sin. Sin isn't disobeying a dictator God. It is taking away the freedom of others that God gave them. As to God's happy planet, I would say he would be happiest with the planet with the most happy people. People are most happy when they're free. So, I guess my answer would be yes. The planet God would be least happy with would be filled with Nazis lead by Darth Vader.

Paul Anthony,

Here's what I know about the Creator:

(1)God cares about individuals because it is the survival of the fittest individuals that drive evolution and just as we want our children to be better than us these individuals are rewarded with descendants better than them.

(2) Evolution is on-going. God is proud of our status as the smartest monkeys on the planet, but God wants us to be humble and to acknowledge that there is more evolving that must be done. God never planned on creating a super race. He gave races the choice to either go extinct or to move into a higher level of physical and spiritual evolution.

(3) God created the entire universe and most likely seeded other planets with the ingredients for life because the universe is biocentric. The races on the planets that do well are granted access to explore the Heavens and befriend other life forms. The races on the planets that do badly are not granted access to the Heavens and are selected for extinction.

(4) It is highly likely that God created the entire universe for the sole purpose of having Life develop (eventually) as His partners in paradise. Life is the center of the universe.

Schizophretard wrote:

Uriah,

I don't know if God has a penis but if he does mine is definitely made in the image of God's.

LOL

Well, if I was right about God - then at least we know where the Milky Way came from...

Paul Anthony wrote:

Wow! Interesting discussion you've got going here.

I'm inclined to agree - mostly - with Uriah.

God created evolution, a really neat device that ensures life forms will continue to adapt to a changing environment. Because of this self-perpetuating device, I know some things about the Creator:

(1) God does not care about individuals. God's (evolution's) concern is with the continual improvement of species, not individual members of that species.

(2) Evolution is on-going. We are so proud of our status as the smartest monkeys on the planet, but seem to forget that evolution isn't finished! If God planned on creating a super race, we probably aren't even the beta version.

(3) God created the entire universe and may have seeded other planets with the ingredients for life. If so, you can bet there is evolution working on those planets, too.

(4) It is highly unlikely that God created the entire universe for the sole purpose of having homo sapiens develop (eventually) as His partners in paradise. Earth is not the center of the universe. It is not even the center of our solar system, which is an insignificant part of a galaxy which is also not in the center of the universe. If you think we are the center of God's Master Plan, you should reconsider it on the basis of our location in God's Master-planned Community.

Well put PA - I'm inclined to agree.

The Paineful Truth wrote:

It isn't certain, but I think that one of the pieces of wisdom in the Bible is that we're created in His image.

I think it's more likely that we create god in our own image than the other way around.

"God is like a mirror. The mirror never changes, but everybody who looks at it sees something different." ~Rabbi Harold Kushner

Aaron wrote:

I think it's more likely that we create god in our own image than the other way around.

That's what all the atheists say in response to revealed religion theists; not that the atheists are wrong about the theists, or atheism, He may not exist, but if He does then we are almost certainly a reflection of Him spiritually as I explained above.

Do you believe that God created the universe and then indifferently abandoned it? Is is irrational for us to conclude that such a circumstance makes no sense?

The Paineful Truth wrote:

That's what all the atheists say in response to revealed religion theists; not that the atheists are wrong about the theists, or atheism, He may not exist, but if He does then we are almost certainly a reflection of Him spiritually as I explained above.

I believe that "god" exists as a "greater whole" and that we are a part of this "greater whole", much in the same way that a wave is a part of the greater ocean. And just as waves and oceans share some common aspects (such as wetness), I believe that we share some common aspects with god. However, despite some of these common aspects, I don't beleive that we are created in god's image anymore than a wave is created in the oceans image.

I think god/existence's ultimate form is beyond our comprehension. That doesn't keep us from trying come up with a form however (myself included). We have no choice but to project our subjective vantage point onto the world around us and with god it's no different. That's why the image of god that most of us have are for the most part more of a reflection of personal and cultural beliefs than they are of god in it's "true form".

The Paineful Truth wrote:

Do you believe that God created the universe and then indifferently abandoned it?

No I don't.

The Paineful Truth wrote:

Is it irrational for us to conclude that such a circumstance makes no sense?

It's not irrational, I just think that there are other god models that are more rational. But that's just my opinion.

This is a model that I prefer...

"The One is all things and no one of them; the source of all things is not all things; all things are its possession- running back, so to speak, to it- or, more correctly, not yet so, they will be.

But a universe from an unbroken unity, in which there appears no diversity, not even duality?

It is precisely because there is nothing within the One that all things are from it: in order that Being may be brought about, the source must be no Being but Being's generator, in what is to be thought of as the primal act of generation. Seeking nothing, possessing nothing, lacking nothing, the One is perfect and, in our metaphor, has overflowed, and in its exuberance has produced the new: this product has turned again to its begetter and been filled and has become its contemplator and so an Intellectual-Principle." ~ Plotinus

Aaron wrote:

That's why the image of god that most of us have are for the most part more of a reflection of personal and cultural beliefs that they are of god in it's "true form".

My conception of God is totally different from what I was brought up to believe, and has been pieced together almost completely out of whole cloth.

Aaron wrote:

This is a model that I prefer...

Seeking nothing, possessing nothing, lacking nothing, the One is perfect and, in our metaphor, has overflowed, and in its exuberance has produced the new: this product has turned again to its begetter and been filled and has become its contemplator and so an Intellectual-Principle." ~ Plotinus

Overflowed? How can the "One that is all things", overflow?

But I agree with the One that is all things as a good description of God; basically equivalent to the One Whole Truth.

Is it impossible to be perfect and still want something?

schitzo wrote ...

Quote :

Helium,

Paineful understood exactly what I meant by God being a libertarian without me explaining it. So, it isn't an unreasonable theory. I'm sure Paineful has came to the same conclusion that I have that the true God isn't some dictator that demands worship as Theists believe but God loves freedom and for that is worthy of our worship.

Again, no, no, no. You're both absolutely right. You just don't have to be a libertarian to come up with that.

It's pretty 1-0-1.

You're great logic gap is that you're trying to copyright for Libertarianism a pretty simple and obvious universal truth.