Karma

Do you believe in some form of karma?

i had to vote no. i believe that we have a spirit of some sort that converts into some other sort of energy when we die, but that's just faith and not based in reality. it's just an assumption i've made. karma suggests something like that- an outside force that judges and manipulates you.

there are evil rich bastards that manipulate and destroy lives to make their own easier, who are born into luxury and act 'evil' to maintain it.

that ain't karma, so there ain't karma.

I believe in cause-and-effect. Some might call the result "karma". Every action results in an equal and opposite reaction. It is a law of physics. So, if I treat someone badly, that person will react toward me in a fashion that is less than pleasant. Karma.

I also believe that our thoughts create our reality, so if a person has a conscience, an act that the person considers to be unethical will cause thoughts that will result in a self-imposed (although sub-conscious) punishment. Karma. Of course, if the person is an amoral psychopath, that may not be a problem!

Paul Anthony wrote:

I believe in cause-and-effect. Some might call the result "karma". Every action results in an equal and opposite reaction. It is a law of physics. So, if I treat someone badly, that person will react toward me in a fashion that is less than pleasant. Karma.

I also believe that our thoughts create our reality, so if a person has a conscience, an act that the person considers to be unethical will cause thoughts that will result in a self-imposed (although sub-conscious) punishment. Karma. Of course, if the person is an amoral psychopath, that may not be a problem!

Yes I agree. Especially with the first example.

michael1111 wrote:

i had to vote no. i believe that we have a spirit of some sort that converts into some other sort of energy when we die, but that's just faith and not based in reality. it's just an assumption i've made. karma suggests something like that- an outside force that judges and manipulates you.

there are evil rich bastards that manipulate and destroy lives to make their own easier, who are born into luxury and act 'evil' to maintain it.

I agree with that as well.

I guess like with anything else it depends on how one defines things.

Aaron wrote:

Do you believe in some form of karma?

Seems to me that Karma, in a practical sense, is merely the natural law of behavior, as summarized in the Golden Rule : in any socio-cultural setting, you can expect to be done by as you do to. Unfortunately, cultural laws are not as inevitable as natural laws. That's why justice is so erratic and unfair.

Karma = reciprocity.

Yet, I doubt that recompense will be deferred until the next life, whether resurrection or reincarnation.

I don't believe in it as a supernatural force that follows us through many reincarnations. And frankly I had to leave a Buddhist forum in disgust after reading a thread in which people said that people suffering in poverty deserved it for bad things they did in past lives (and the sanctimonious "but that doesn't mean we shouldn't help them" didn't make it any better.)

I do think that in general if you're good to other living beings you make good things happen and if you're bad to other living beings you make bad things happen. They might not happen directly to you - I don't believe in a just universe because I don't feel a psychological need to blame victims or justify privileges that I received by luck of birth. But all of us are indirectly affected by the good or evil that we cause in the world.

Absolutely believe in karma.

Here's the caveat though. Not in this life. Obviously bad people get away with murder; good people get shafted.

That's life.

So in other words karma does not play out in this life. If it did, it would be saying that everyone struck by tragedy deserved it.

This I emphatically do not believe.

Sh*t happens. You bet it does. And karma has nothing to do with it.

But I actually do believe that if there is an afterlife, if there is a god, if there is a purpose, then in the long run there is karma. Actually it's just a modified form of heaven where the good get rewarded and the bad get punished.

With the Christian or muslim hevean, I guess it's like a report card, too much sin and you go south. Karma also adresses this same issue.

Helium wrote:

Not in this life. Obviously bad people get away with murder; good people get shafted.

That's life.

So in other words karma does not play out in this life. If it did, it would be saying that everyone struck by tragedy deserved it.

This I emphatically do not believe.

Sh*t happens.

I can understand why you (and a lot of other people) don't want to believe it, but let me ask you: do you believe in cause-and-effect? I mean, do you accept it as an immutable law, evident throughout the universe?

Isn't the main reason you are a Deist, the fact that the universe is an effect that cries out for a cause?

As long as you accept the concept of cause-and-effect, wouldn't it be difficult to declare that "shit happens"? Without a cause?!?

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As long as you accept the concept of cause-and-effect, wouldn't it be difficult to declare that "shit happens"? Without a cause?!?

People seem to take different views of cause & effect depending on their overall worldview: a> everything happens for a reason, which is ultimately the intention or will of God. b> Like a billiard ball, every effect has a cause, but there is no ultimate cause---no pool shooter.

Some also view Karma as simply a balancing law of Nature, with no ultimate goal in mind. Others see it as a law of God, with the purpose of establishing justice. Personally, I don't see Karma as a very efficient method for ensuring justice for individuals, especially if I have to start all over as a baby in another life with a load of bad karma to work out. So I view the Yin/Yang, Cause & Effect phenomenon simply as a means of maintaining general, universal karmic balance in a dynamic system.

My own personal justice hangs in the balance, so to speak. I'm still not sure how I feel about that.

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As long as you accept the concept of cause-and-effect, wouldn't it be difficult to declare that "shit happens"? Without a cause?!?

Well the cause of the Italian earthquake was movement of the earth's plate. It has absolutely nothing to do with a person's "karma", if you know what I mean. Sh*t just happens. A continental plate in the earth moved inches. People were in the wrong place at the wrong time. Good people died. No doubt a bad person or two died. Had nothing to do with their individual karma and everything to do with plate tectonics.

I actually kind of agree with your take on cause and affect, PA, I guess I interpret it differently.
But MM's point was some Buddhists, for instance, believe that all the people that died in the earthquake were fated by karma to die.
My point is that I believe that all the people that died had absolutely nothing to do with karma and everything to do with plate tectonics. That's deism applied to Buddhism I guess.

You see what I mean. The cause of death wasn't their karma, it was plate tectonics which caused the natural disaster that killed them.

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I don't see Karma as a very efficient method for ensuring justice for individuals, especially if I have to start all over as a baby in another life with a load of bad karma to work out.

I think I'm referring to karma in a real general sense, almost borrowing it as a metaphor. I guess I would need to define my term if I got too much more into it. But suffice to say that my general karmic metaphor is the sense, in agreement with PA, that there is, in essence, an affect to what we cause on this earth on a spirtual plane, if you will.

I don't think it really matters what form the afterlife takes, and I certainly don't, myself, conjecture anything like the endless rebirth cycles.

With the afterlife, I guess, it's a simple question.
Is there one?
If there is one, my definition is that the life that we just led, the information is stored; and also that the essence of who we are is somehow preserved, whether as an individual, or perhaps in a God-collective.

If such is the case than I would postulate that what we've done in this life matters, that the life we have lived will somehow be called to account, perhaps by God, perhaps by our "expanded" selves.

Defining terms is always a good idea, so here goes~

I am not my body. I am IN my body, in the same sense that...when I get behind the wheel of my car, I am IN my car. I don't think of myself AS the car, nor have I become the car. When it is time to send the car to a "bone yard", I do not need to die with the car (unless a fatal accident precipitated the car's demise). I can get into another car and still be "me". The car is merely a vehicle that serves as a tool, allowing me to travel faster than I could without it. But, it also presents some limitations. While in the car, I can't climb a tree, or a flight of stairs. There are trade-offs involved when choosing to travel in any vehicle, whether is is a car or a human body.

To appreciate that perspective it may be helpful to add this:
I am not a human being having a spiritual experience - I am a spiritual being having a human experience.

With that in mind, when I change cars I am still the same (spiritual) person that I was before, therefore whatever I have done with my life will not change. My karma stays with me when I leave this body, just as it stays with me when I get in and out of my car.

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Isn't the main reason you are a Deist, the fact that the universe is an effect that cries out for a cause?

Yes. but I don't see traditional Karma as an appropriate means for effecting the ends (whatever they may be) of the ultimate Cause. The up & down world obviously swings from one side to another of the ideal balance point. But will the pendulum ever stop at the point where all imbalances are resolved in a state of eternal justice? I would hope so, but I don't know so.

Some Christians seem to believe in a form of Karmic retribution. When persecuted by unbelievers, they take comfort in the belief that God will right all wrongs in this life by turning the tables in the next life. As my Momma used to say, "bottom rail's on top". But I don't have any good reason to expect such a black & white, good & evil outcome.

I'm not holding my breath in anticipation of another chance to get it all right next time. That may seem desirable from my narrow, personal, pouting point of view, but I don't see that it's necessary from the eternal Causer's objective, long-range perspective. My critique of the Christian concept of a New (reincarnated) World is "why didn't God get it right the first time? I suspect S/he did, but we just don't see eye-to-eye on that topic.

A few less mystical, and more mechanical, terms for the phenomenon we are trying to talk about are Reciprocity, and Balance, and Harmony, and Proportion. In reality, what we get is the wavering, dynamic balance of a poor tightrope walker---and sometimes we fall without a net. In a Karmic scenario, God would raise us from the dead, and put us back on the rope, but with a balance beam this time---if we really, sincerely tried hard the first time. Or with a squirming monkey on the back, if we were bad rope-walkers the first time.

PS---Don't mind me. I don't know what I'm talking about. I'm just being argumentative.

Gnomon wrote:

Some Christians seem to believe in a form of Karmic retribution. When persecuted by unbelievers, they take comfort in the belief that God will right all wrongs in this life by turning the tables in the next life.... But I don't have any good reason to expect such a black & white, good & evil outcome.

I don't either.

Gnomon wrote:

In a Karmic scenario, God would raise us from the dead, and put us back on the rope, but with a balance beam this time---if we really, sincerely tried hard the first time.

No, that's the Christian scenario, not the Karmic one. God has nothing to do with Karma. (We're Deists, remember?) We are co-creators, so it is we who put ourselves back on the rope.

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But I don't have any good reason to expect such a black & white, good & evil outcome.

If there is a God/afterlife than I would postulate that God would be a champion of goodness. If there is no God/afterlife then, I would also agree there would be no resolution, and goodness may very well die when the last good man/woman dies..

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Defining terms is always a good idea, so here goes~

I am not my body. I am IN my body, in the same sense that...when I get behind the wheel of my car, I am IN my car. I don't think of myself AS the car, nor have I become the car. When it is time to send the car to a "bone yard", I do not need to die with the car (unless a fatal accident precipitated the car's demise). I can get into another car and still be "me". The car is merely a vehicle that serves as a tool, allowing me to travel faster than I could without it. But, it also presents some limitations. While in the car, I can't climb a tree, or a flight of stairs. There are trade-offs involved when choosing to travel in any vehicle, whether is is a car or a human body.

To appreciate that perspective it may be helpful to add this:
I am not a human being having a spiritual experience - I am a spiritual being having a human experience.

With that in mind, when I change cars I am still the same (spiritual) person that I was before, therefore whatever I have done with my life will not change. My karma stays with me when I leave this body, just as it stays with me when I get in and out of my car.

I agree with you. That would be complementary to my views expressed here.

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No, that's the Christian scenario, not the Karmic one. God has nothing to do with Karma. (We're Deists, remember?) We are co-creators, so it is we who put ourselves back on the rope.

I was referring to the traditional Hindu, Sikh, Buddhist concept of Karma, which is inextricably linked to the concept of reincarnation. Apparently, some New Agers have adapted Karma to a Western and Christian tradition. The New Age version seems to be equivalent to the matter-of-fact biblical observation that "you reap what you sow". For example, it has been said that if you sow discord, you will reap the whirlwind.

I'm not sure what kind of natural force or mechanism is envisioned to enforce that rule, though. In the real world we don't always get what we deserve. As a general rule, things do seem to balance out, but it is a precarious balance. And, as you say, it often takes cultural forces (human effort) to re-establish justice and harmony. Nature's idea of balance does not always coincide with human interests. For example, the recent earthquake in Italy was just a case of Mother Earth re-balancing highly-stressed tectonic forces. Was that the kind of Christian karma that flooded sinful New Orleans?

I'd like to hear your explanation of a Deist kind of karma, as contrasted to that of other traditions and belief systems where the external balancing force is divine or natural, as opposed to the internal human, cultural system of collective morality.

I think you must be asking PA? I agree with you that if there is karma, then it absolutely doesn't play it self out in this real universe, absolutely.
I agree with you the earthquake in Italy is soley the result of plate tectonics and nothing to do with people's karma.

My karma metaphor (and maybe I've stretched it beyond where still using karma to describe it is more confusing then helpful) would only work in the grand scheme of our eternal existence and not within our manifestation in this universe. As I said, good people die, bad people live. Sh*t happens.

And you're right I suppose the karmic principle that I like to siphon off to deism is, like George Harrison sang, 'what you do is going to come back to you'. But here's the caveat. I believe that only for our soul; not for our manifestation on this earth.

Many good people die that didn't deserve to.

Many bad people get away with things they shouldn't.

But if there is an afterlife, if we continue on, then I believe the karma principle of 'what you do will come back to you' or 'reap what you sow' will play a role.

So you maybe right, maybe that's stretching the definition of karma.

Having said that, I think PA was right when he said that acting in a good and honourable fashion in the present universe, for sure, does have an impact on how people will relate to you and treat you. It just won't offer any protection whatsoever, for instance, from a drunk driver.

Earthquakes are natural occurrences that have nothing to do with Karma.
But, the death toll is also irrelevant. No-ONE died, although every-BODY did.

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No-ONE died, although every-BODY did.

Ultimately that is the premise of my deism. Were that not my hope, then I would be an atheist.

Paul Anthony wrote:

Earthquakes are natural occurrences that have nothing to do with Karma.
But, the death toll is also irrelevant. No-ONE died, although every-BODY did.

I suppose that what you mean by "Karma" then has little or nothing to do with righteousness or justice in this life but rather on a larger, perhaps eternal, scale. In that sense, Karma may be more like spiritual growth, in the sense of becoming more and more god-like. Am I close?

Some Christians believe that Piety-Karma (sinfulness/righteousness ratio) is like interest that accumulates in this life, but the payback only occurs at maturity---in the next life. The Seed-Faith Christians seem to believe in a quicker return on investment---as long as you put your money where your faith is.

I view the Hindu concept of Karma as a way to rationalize the existence of evil---specifically the caste system---in a world created by semi-perfect deities. It performs the same function as the Christian evil-now-heaven-later justification, but over many up & down stages instead of one-big-step up or down.

Obviously, I still don't have a clear understanding of "Deist Karma". Is it related to the notion that each of us is in the process of becoming a god? I have some inkling of such a possibility. But my Deist worldview has been focused primarily on the here-and-now, so the possible options of the hereafter have not yet been completely sorted-out. Does that mean I'm still low on the evolution-toward-god scale?

Gnomon wrote:

Obviously, I still don't have a clear understanding of "Deist Karma". Is it related to the notion that each of us is in the process of becoming a god? I have some inkling of such a possibility. But my Deist worldview has been focused primarily on the here-and-now, so the possible options of the hereafter have not yet been completely sorted-out. Does that mean I'm still low on the evolution-toward-god scale?

A deist doesn't judge! (And neither does a Deist God)

Perhaps the problem here is the usual one: There is no BIG DEIST BOOK that tells us what deists must believe. Personally, I like it that way. So, I can't tell you what you, as a deist, should think.

Regarding an after-life, some deists maintain a philosophy that closely resembles their own personal Christian origins - we live, we die, and we go to heaven or hell depending upon how we lived this life. Others lean toward a more Eastern philosophy that includes reincarnation - we live, we die, we linger somewhere until we are reborn, and cycle through it all over again. With this philosophy comes the theory that what we do in our many lives accumulates, affecting our next incarnation. Think of it like grade school: if you learn all your lessons, you move on to the next grade, but if you don't, you have to repeat a grade.

My own philosophy lies somewhere in between. I think this is not the only life I will (or have) experienced. I am here to learn something, and when (if) I figure out what that is, I'll "graduate". It may be that I just go up one grade and live another life on this plane, or at some point I will finally graduate beyond grade school and make it to college. Since I'm still in grade school, I can only speculate on what college might be like.

But as long as I'm here, Karma affects my day-to-day existence in minor ways. How I treat others has an effect on how they treat me. The Golden Rule is Karma on the grade school level.

Paul Anthony wrote:

Perhaps the problem here is the usual one: There is no BIG DEIST BOOK that tells us what deists must believe. Personally, I like it that way. So, I can't tell you what you, as a deist, should think.

I'm just riffing here. Since we don't have a divine revelation, other than the natural world around us, how are we supposed to know what comes next? I just came across the first episode of a YouTube series, that reminded me of the Lost TV series (and this thread) : a bunch of clueless deists, who wake up in the woods with amnesia, and try to figure out what the h*ll is going on.
ENNEADS (I have no idea how it comes out) *
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9PQkCfUPvXE

Each religious or philosophical tradition includes some kind of rationale for the perplexing mess we find ourselves in. But each of those restoring-the-balance schemes is an imaginary, wishful scenario based on a particular, man-made god-concept. And that includes Deists. Take out your crayons. Now draw a picture of God---then draw a picture of Heaven, or Nirvana, or Eternal Being.

Atheists don't believe in God. So they don't believe in divine justice. Any retribution is limited to a man-made solution in the here-and-now. Orthodox Buddhists don't have a god, per se, so they trust in the universal, impersonal, but reliable, system of natural "laws". All they have to do is look within to discover the rules, and with a little help from the Enlightened One, follow the path to Nirvana. But how do they know that the "system" actually includes a satisfactory ending to the day-to-day ups-and-downs? Does Taoism include any final resolution of the earthly dilemma?

Those who believe in the various scriptural deities also believe in a purpose and outcome befitting the character of that particular deity. For example, a king deity will invite his faithful servants to come live with him in the castle where they will be safe from harm, but disloyalty will be punished. A father deity will welcome his prodigal sons back into the ancestral home, and minor transgressions will be forgiven.

I would have guessed that the Deist version of a happy ending would be more like Nirvana than Heaven : . . . eternal unconsciousness . . .temporal Consciousness . . . eternal unconsciousness. But apparently that is not the case. I have my own wistful scenario, but I really don't know what to expect. My Christian indoctrination has left a permanent scar of Hell as the final abode of those who reject Christ.

* First Ennead of Plotinus : "On Whether Happiness (Well Being) Increases with Time."

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Since we don't have a divine revelation, other than the natural world around us, how are we supposed to know what comes next? I just came across the first episode of a YouTube series, that reminded me of the Lost TV series (and this thread) : a bunch of clueless deists, who wake up in the woods with amnesia, and try to figure out what the h*ll is going on.

Exactly. And ultimately your guess is as good as mine. Better maybe.